JULY 28 2007
MEDIA ALERT: Air America features Scott Horton of Harper's
discussing the Siegelman prosecution.
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Scott Horton Interview on July 28
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Follow these simple instructions:
MEDIA ALERT: Air America features Scott Horton of Harper's
discussing the Siegelman prosecution.
..............................................................................................................
Scott Horton Interview on July 28
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Scott Horton of Harper's
Transcript From Ring of Fire Interview:
David Bender - Introduction: Former Alabama governor Don
Siegelman has just begun serving a seven year term in federal prison,
after having been convicted of accepting a half million dollar bribe. But
critics say his prosecution was a political vendetta by Republicans. Karl
Rove has been implicated. Dozens of former state attorneys general
are demanding a congressional investigation, and members of the
House Judiciary Committee are calling for a Justice Department probe
of Don Siegelman's prosecution.
Scott Horton is an attorney and a contributor to Harper's Magazine,
where he has been covering the Segalman case.
DB: Scott, welcome to Ring of Fire. ... Explain this to me. What we the
charges against Don Siegelman and how where the brought to bear
against him.
Scott Horton: We've had a series of different proceedings brought
against him going back to 2001. The first set involved accusations,
always accusations of political corruption involving dozens of different
acts. The first set was investigated by the Alabama state attorney
general. A man named Bill Pryor, a very controversial fellow ...
extremely, intensely partisan ... Pryor concluded he couldn't make a
case, but he then went and try to sell to the Department of Justice, the
of bringing a case ...
Bender: We have talked about bribery. What were the charges? What
was the alleged case against Don Siegelman? [It] involved
automobiles, kickbacks for state favors?
Horton: The absolute core accusation is this -- a man named Richard
Scrushy, the CEO of Health South, made a contribution of $500,000 to
the Alabama Education Foundation, which was an organization that
was involved lobbying for an education lottery in Alabama.
Bender: A lottery that Siegelman had run on?
Horton: Right. And then Mr. Scrushy was appointed to a hospital
oversight board in Alabama. The core accusation all the way at the
base of all of this is that Don Siegelman sold that office, the
appointment to that board, for $500,000. Note: Siegelman derived no
personal benefit from this whatsoever. Richard Scrushy is a
Republican, who opposed Don Siegelman, and he had been appointed
to that board by three prior governors, most of them Republicans. ...
One of the most preposterous cases ever brought.
Bender: As I recall, one of the judges used that word "preposterous"
in here somewhere. So go forward. Bill Pryor could not make a case in
2001 ...
Horton: Then we have another case being brought involving some
incidents in Tuscaloosa, in the Northern District of Alabama. It comes
before a judge named Clemens, and he instantly starts asking
questions about the political motivations of about the political
motivation of the prosecutors, and says "Look, I am not going to allow
this to go forward in my court unless you can make a prima facie case
before me that you have got something here." They fail. The matter is
dismissed. And then, in a matter of weeks, it is recommenced in the
Middle District of Alabama. And this time it is commenced by another
US attorney ...
Bender: So they went court-shopping?
Horton: Exactly. Which is not appropriate. In fact, it is a serious
violation of legal norms. But there is hardly a legal norm or rule that
has not been violated in the course of this prosecution.
Bender: It is important to note here, Scott, that Don Siegelman was
one of the most successful Democrats in the modern history of
Alabama, in the last twenty five years, in a heavily Republican state.
Horton: I would say he was the most successful Democrat. He was the
Democrat that Alabama Republicans most liked to hate. He had been
elected to every significant state-wide office ...
Bender: Secretary of State, Lt. Governor ... Attorney General as well?
Horton: Attorney General as well. He had sometimes won by
landslides. He was incredibly popular. All this at a time when the
Republican Party was consolidating its vise-like grip on politics in
Alabama. So they hated him. And there was a lot of concentrated
energy on taking him out.
Bender: So let's pick up the thread. ...
Horton: To jump forward a little bit, recently, in the last two and a half
months, they have gotten a lot of detail about what was happening
when this case got launched. ... A Republican attorney named Jill
Simpson filed an affidavit. Ms. Simpson had worked in the election
campaign of Don Siegelman's opponent. She files an affidavit in which
she discloses that back in 2002, she had heard a number of very
prominent Republican figures talking, in her presence, about the effort
to get Don Siegelman. And the discussion included getting Karl
involved. And William Canary, who is the husband of Leura Canary
[the US attorney in the Middle District], had talked to Karl about this,
and Karl had talked to Justice and this would be taken care of.
Bender: "Karl" would be Karl Rove?
Horton: Exactly. And William Canary was the partner of Karl Rove.
Karl Rove had a long period of time in which he was deeply involved in
Alabama politics. In 1990, he managed a campaign through which the
Republicans took control of the Alabama court system at the highest
level. ... And that is marked as the point at which the Republican Party
really rose to take control of state apparatus ...
Bender: So if you follow the thread here all of it leads through the
Republican administrations at both the state and national levels, and
Karl Rove, clearly, one could make a case, was intimately involved in
the details of this. But unfortunately, as we will see moving forward ...
with the whole US attorneys issue, there is no way to make these
cases. Because they are denying access to these records ... they are
stonewalling ...
Horton: Except, remember, that we have a Republican lawyer who
says she heard this being discussed. We have gone back and
checked a number of details surrounding her statement, and we have
found a contemporaneous corroboration of this, when she sought
Ethics advice, from other attorneys in Alabama, we know that the
meeting actually occurred, we know the people she said were there
were there. Everything falls into place. And then we've got a lot of
circumstantial evidence suggesting that Rove was indeed involved in
this ... This prosecution was right at the top of the political agenda ...
Bender: ... Where does this go from here?
Horton: Well, the sentencing itself was extremely theatrical. The judge
insisted that he be manacled and hand-cuffed, and dragged out of the
court room in front of press cameras. Something I have never seen
happen before. It was poor political theatre from beginning to end. This
is a case where there is quite compelling, indeed, overwhelming
grounds for appeal, and I certainly expect this is going to be
overturned on appeal.
Bender: This sounds like Russia, this sounds like a show trail.
Horton: I started my own career observing trials in the former Soviet
Union and I have to say that more than once looking at this it has
reminded me of some of the things I saw in Russia. But we have to go
back and look at what is happening with the prosecutors. Because the
larger dimension of this is the politicization of prosecution. The
government is saying now, "Oh, this has all been handled by local
prosecutors, career people down in Alabama." They even have the
local prosecutor coming out and making statements, repeatedly, to
that effect. That's a lie.
Bender: Who is Noel Hillman?
Horton: Noel Hillman was the head of the Public Integrity section of the
Department of Justice. We know from the beginning of the case that
Public Integrity was providing supervision. Noel Hillman went down and
gave a press conference. He since has been appointed as a federal
judge. He was also appointed to be a Court of Appeals judge, and that
appointment was pulled at the last minute. We have been told there is
a very clear reason why: if he came before Congress for hearings, he
could be asked about the Siegelman case and the White House didn't
want to risk that.
Bender: And it appears that it is not just that Siegelman case ... Noel
Hillman ... was involved not only in this, but in a case in Wisconsin,
which was thrown out by the courts, and that there has been a clear,
partisan politicization of prosecutions ... this is sort of the flip-side of
[the US attorneys scandal], those attorneys may have been fired for
not being sufficiently partisan, we are now seeing what happens when
you get US attorneys and Justice Department officials who are partisan
zealots ...
Horton: ... It is under Noel Hillman that we get seven prosecutions of
Democrats to every one [prosecution of] Republicans ...
Bender: Seven to one Democrats to Republicans prosecuted under
the Public Integrity section of the Justice Department? ...
Horton: And we have people in the Justice Department right now
telling us that it went far beyond the Public Integrity section, and that
there were people at the level of Deputy Attorney General, Attorney
General and in the White House who were involved in directing these
cases, which leads us back to Karl Rove, Harriet Miers, and others.
David Bender - Introduction: Former Alabama governor Don
Siegelman has just begun serving a seven year term in federal prison,
after having been convicted of accepting a half million dollar bribe. But
critics say his prosecution was a political vendetta by Republicans. Karl
Rove has been implicated. Dozens of former state attorneys general
are demanding a congressional investigation, and members of the
House Judiciary Committee are calling for a Justice Department probe
of Don Siegelman's prosecution.
Scott Horton is an attorney and a contributor to Harper's Magazine,
where he has been covering the Segalman case.
DB: Scott, welcome to Ring of Fire. ... Explain this to me. What we the
charges against Don Siegelman and how where the brought to bear
against him.
Scott Horton: We've had a series of different proceedings brought
against him going back to 2001. The first set involved accusations,
always accusations of political corruption involving dozens of different
acts. The first set was investigated by the Alabama state attorney
general. A man named Bill Pryor, a very controversial fellow ...
extremely, intensely partisan ... Pryor concluded he couldn't make a
case, but he then went and try to sell to the Department of Justice, the
of bringing a case ...
Bender: We have talked about bribery. What were the charges? What
was the alleged case against Don Siegelman? [It] involved
automobiles, kickbacks for state favors?
Horton: The absolute core accusation is this -- a man named Richard
Scrushy, the CEO of Health South, made a contribution of $500,000 to
the Alabama Education Foundation, which was an organization that
was involved lobbying for an education lottery in Alabama.
Bender: A lottery that Siegelman had run on?
Horton: Right. And then Mr. Scrushy was appointed to a hospital
oversight board in Alabama. The core accusation all the way at the
base of all of this is that Don Siegelman sold that office, the
appointment to that board, for $500,000. Note: Siegelman derived no
personal benefit from this whatsoever. Richard Scrushy is a
Republican, who opposed Don Siegelman, and he had been appointed
to that board by three prior governors, most of them Republicans. ...
One of the most preposterous cases ever brought.
Bender: As I recall, one of the judges used that word "preposterous"
in here somewhere. So go forward. Bill Pryor could not make a case in
2001 ...
Horton: Then we have another case being brought involving some
incidents in Tuscaloosa, in the Northern District of Alabama. It comes
before a judge named Clemens, and he instantly starts asking
questions about the political motivations of about the political
motivation of the prosecutors, and says "Look, I am not going to allow
this to go forward in my court unless you can make a prima facie case
before me that you have got something here." They fail. The matter is
dismissed. And then, in a matter of weeks, it is recommenced in the
Middle District of Alabama. And this time it is commenced by another
US attorney ...
Bender: So they went court-shopping?
Horton: Exactly. Which is not appropriate. In fact, it is a serious
violation of legal norms. But there is hardly a legal norm or rule that
has not been violated in the course of this prosecution.
Bender: It is important to note here, Scott, that Don Siegelman was
one of the most successful Democrats in the modern history of
Alabama, in the last twenty five years, in a heavily Republican state.
Horton: I would say he was the most successful Democrat. He was the
Democrat that Alabama Republicans most liked to hate. He had been
elected to every significant state-wide office ...
Bender: Secretary of State, Lt. Governor ... Attorney General as well?
Horton: Attorney General as well. He had sometimes won by
landslides. He was incredibly popular. All this at a time when the
Republican Party was consolidating its vise-like grip on politics in
Alabama. So they hated him. And there was a lot of concentrated
energy on taking him out.
Bender: So let's pick up the thread. ...
Horton: To jump forward a little bit, recently, in the last two and a half
months, they have gotten a lot of detail about what was happening
when this case got launched. ... A Republican attorney named Jill
Simpson filed an affidavit. Ms. Simpson had worked in the election
campaign of Don Siegelman's opponent. She files an affidavit in which
she discloses that back in 2002, she had heard a number of very
prominent Republican figures talking, in her presence, about the effort
to get Don Siegelman. And the discussion included getting Karl
involved. And William Canary, who is the husband of Leura Canary
[the US attorney in the Middle District], had talked to Karl about this,
and Karl had talked to Justice and this would be taken care of.
Bender: "Karl" would be Karl Rove?
Horton: Exactly. And William Canary was the partner of Karl Rove.
Karl Rove had a long period of time in which he was deeply involved in
Alabama politics. In 1990, he managed a campaign through which the
Republicans took control of the Alabama court system at the highest
level. ... And that is marked as the point at which the Republican Party
really rose to take control of state apparatus ...
Bender: So if you follow the thread here all of it leads through the
Republican administrations at both the state and national levels, and
Karl Rove, clearly, one could make a case, was intimately involved in
the details of this. But unfortunately, as we will see moving forward ...
with the whole US attorneys issue, there is no way to make these
cases. Because they are denying access to these records ... they are
stonewalling ...
Horton: Except, remember, that we have a Republican lawyer who
says she heard this being discussed. We have gone back and
checked a number of details surrounding her statement, and we have
found a contemporaneous corroboration of this, when she sought
Ethics advice, from other attorneys in Alabama, we know that the
meeting actually occurred, we know the people she said were there
were there. Everything falls into place. And then we've got a lot of
circumstantial evidence suggesting that Rove was indeed involved in
this ... This prosecution was right at the top of the political agenda ...
Bender: ... Where does this go from here?
Horton: Well, the sentencing itself was extremely theatrical. The judge
insisted that he be manacled and hand-cuffed, and dragged out of the
court room in front of press cameras. Something I have never seen
happen before. It was poor political theatre from beginning to end. This
is a case where there is quite compelling, indeed, overwhelming
grounds for appeal, and I certainly expect this is going to be
overturned on appeal.
Bender: This sounds like Russia, this sounds like a show trail.
Horton: I started my own career observing trials in the former Soviet
Union and I have to say that more than once looking at this it has
reminded me of some of the things I saw in Russia. But we have to go
back and look at what is happening with the prosecutors. Because the
larger dimension of this is the politicization of prosecution. The
government is saying now, "Oh, this has all been handled by local
prosecutors, career people down in Alabama." They even have the
local prosecutor coming out and making statements, repeatedly, to
that effect. That's a lie.
Bender: Who is Noel Hillman?
Horton: Noel Hillman was the head of the Public Integrity section of the
Department of Justice. We know from the beginning of the case that
Public Integrity was providing supervision. Noel Hillman went down and
gave a press conference. He since has been appointed as a federal
judge. He was also appointed to be a Court of Appeals judge, and that
appointment was pulled at the last minute. We have been told there is
a very clear reason why: if he came before Congress for hearings, he
could be asked about the Siegelman case and the White House didn't
want to risk that.
Bender: And it appears that it is not just that Siegelman case ... Noel
Hillman ... was involved not only in this, but in a case in Wisconsin,
which was thrown out by the courts, and that there has been a clear,
partisan politicization of prosecutions ... this is sort of the flip-side of
[the US attorneys scandal], those attorneys may have been fired for
not being sufficiently partisan, we are now seeing what happens when
you get US attorneys and Justice Department officials who are partisan
zealots ...
Horton: ... It is under Noel Hillman that we get seven prosecutions of
Democrats to every one [prosecution of] Republicans ...
Bender: Seven to one Democrats to Republicans prosecuted under
the Public Integrity section of the Justice Department? ...
Horton: And we have people in the Justice Department right now
telling us that it went far beyond the Public Integrity section, and that
there were people at the level of Deputy Attorney General, Attorney
General and in the White House who were involved in directing these
cases, which leads us back to Karl Rove, Harriet Miers, and others.
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